The most important week of our lives

danz · Post by **danz** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:58 pm

Here is how I see it. This was a close election. Kerry didn't get the job done in Ohio, a state everyone knew is a very important swing state. John Edwards couldn't even secure his home state for Kerry...

Kerry did not lose this election because here are more stupid people voting the educated ones...that statement is absurd. Look at NH...did that state suddenly become smart because kerry won it?? No, it was a republican state before this election. What about all the states that were marginally won by one candidate or the other...are they marginally educated or stupid?

I am no debater, and I always feel way less informed than I should when discussing political issues, but the reasons you cite for why people would vote for bush (selfishness and/or flock mentality) just doesn't cut it for me. And as you did not vote for bush, nor do you associate with many people that do (that I know of...), that statement just doesn't fly with me.

Having said that, I do still think that this election certainly does not help our standing in the world, and where we will go from here in the next 4 years. I am just not blamming the loss on a dumb america.

Bill Drayton Jr. · Post by **Bill Drayton Jr.** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:04 pm

The truth of it all is that George won because of Richard.

Goemon · Post by **Goemon** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:06 pm

I dunno about "stupid", danz, but people who buy Bush's lies and bullshit rhetoric do not qualify as "intelligent" in my view. Check the exit polls; a majority of people who voted for Bush did so because they think he will protect them from teh terrar. If they actually checked his record, they would realize that Bush has failed them in that aspect even more than any of his other multitude of failings. Ignoring all of that and voting for him anyway is...not smart.

Goemon · Post by **Goemon** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:12 pm

I liked this poll about dear Richard.

mistasparkle* · Post by mistasparkle* » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:18 pm

Stupid? maybe. Mis-informed, mis-lead, self-deluded? definitely.

Exit polls are showing values and the economy were big factors for Bush voters. What a joke. A guy who presided over two wars (one-unprovoked), a multi-billion dollar surplus turning into a multi-trillion dollar deficit, and the first net job-loss in history wins on values and the economy.

(Half of) The American people are no match for the karl-rove (PNAC) message machine.

danz · Post by **danz** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:28 pm

sounds like a bunch of spinsters in here...

my main point is I don't like these sweeping generalizations...that's all...beyond that I agree with all you guys!!! Rember...I voted Kerry!!!

The reason why I feel so strongly about this is because most of my family is actually republican, and voted bush. And despite all your efforts, you would never be able to convince me that they fall into your general categories, and given the chance I would be delighted to see you try and debate them, as I consider them some of the most intelligent and well informed people i know.

Well..that is all I have to say about this! How about a nice picture, goemen??

mistasparkle* · Post by mistasparkle* » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:30 pm

So what is the source of your family's support for Bush?

danz · Post by **danz** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:31 pm

let me get back to you on that one...

Darth Vective · Post by **Darth Vective** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:33 pm

First, Kerry screwed up by having nothing to say. He could have demolished Bush's record on terror, letting 9/11 happen in the first place and not bringing anyone at all to justice over it. He could have deflated the terror bubble. He could have hammered Bush and Cheney on the economy and on business standards. He could have crushed him like a fly on issues of 'morality'. He could have raised hell about the environment and energy policy. He didn't do any of that. He simply converged on Bush's position while talking shit about 'integrity, integrity, integrity', for shame. If you voted for Kerry, you wasted your vote. Is Kerry what you wanted?

I remember my disgust at 4 more years of Reagan and all the bad stuff that entailed (of which 9/11 was very likely just one consequence). Now we're at the same sort of point, but the world is very much more dangerous than it was then, and Bush is a far worse nutter than Reagan. At least Reagan could read a teleprompter.

America is fucked. Your dollar bubble is going to burst soon, and you're going to get your arses kicked in your imperial overreach. You won't even be able to feed yourselves soon, and you're ripe for Civil War No.2 There will be fallout for the rest of the world too, but since it hasn't developed so abnormally as the US, it won't have so far to fall.

Which are the biggest threats worldwide now - A) terrorism, B) environmental degradation, C) disease? Dumb Americans voted A). Bu-boo, it's B) and C) fuckwits. Happy influenza, fatties!

mistasparkle* · Post by mistasparkle* » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:50 pm

hey ocean.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you weren't happy with the election...

Darth Vective · Post by **Darth Vective** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:10 pm

When it's my turn to vote, I'm going to vote for the Green Party which promises to end the 'special relationship' with America. In the meantime, I'm going to persuade as many people as I can to do the same.

The Evil Empire must be isolated and resisted. Americanism in one country!

mistasparkle* · Post by mistasparkle* » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:18 pm

Well now that the republicans control the house, senate, white house, and soon the supreme court... all being steered by the neo-cons... it won't be untrue to call it the American Empire.

Darth Vective · Post by **Darth Vective** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:34 pm

A good article on the election and the Empire by Justin Raimondo here;
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/co ... 83,00.html

R3C · Post by **R3C** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:27 am

Hopefully he'll pull a Nixon, and we can get rid of him.

R3C · Post by **R3C** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:12 pm

[TEE HEE HEE] imagine that, something funny out of the mouth of Moby:

'dear canada,
now, more than ever, your neighbor to the south(aka-the blue states)needs you. most of us living in the northern and western parts of the united states don't feel very connected to the rest of the u.s, so can we bring our states and become part of canada?
we have a lot of money and some interesting cities and we promise not to be too much trouble.
the benefits to you:
a-in one fell swoop you can have southern california and new york city! surfing in canada! suddenly the u.n is on canadian soil! broadway is suddenly in canada! you could then say that canada is the birthplace of jazz and hip-hop!
b-money. cold hard cash. the red states in the u.s might have the voting power, but guess who has the money? yup, your friendly neighborhood blue states.
so when/if you accept our offer you will instantly become the richest country in the world! that sounds pretty good, right?
c-karma. accepting this offer will give you more good karma than you'd know what to do with(because you would instantly make 120 million people VERY happy).
so you get warm beaches, tons of cash, and good karma. who can say no to that?
please let us know if you accept the offer. given our enthusiasm to join canada it's safe to say that the details of the offer could probably be worked out in an afternoon.
thank you very much,
moby
p.s-just to put your minds at ease, we do know that we can't bring our assault weapons with us.'

One more from Moby.

can someone remind me why secession is not an option at this point?
i mean let's be realistic, we live in a divided country.
can't we have the breakaway republics of 'north-east-istan' and 'pacific-stan'?
wouldn't the red states be happier without us?
we could still travel freely and trade freely with them, but can't we just leave?
then you could have 3 countries:
northeastistan
pacificstan
redstateistan
one other option would be for us to all join the republican party en masse and make it socially liberal and fiscally conservative(as opposed to it's current 'socially puritanical/fiscally insane' status).

ok, it's done.
john kerry has seceded.
if you need us, my friends and i will be drunk for the next 4 years.
-moby

Beeeph · Post by **Beeeph** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:29 pm

I have to side with danz on this one. Partially because I voted for bush and I don't wanna agree that I'm stupid. But also because my father, raised democrat but now republican, has got to be the most politically informed and open-minded person on this planet and he voted for bush. He's not dumb nor is he uninformed by any means. It's called having a point-of-view and just because people don't share yours doesn't mean they're wrong, uninformed, or stupid. And don't act like you (by you, I mean anyone supporting the claim that all bush supporters are unintelligent/uniformed/retarded/etc.) know it all, because that's when YOU sound the dumbest.

I'm completely uninformed and stupid and I voted for bush, so those kind of people do exist. I also know quite a few Kerry supporters who are as uninformed as I am. I'm just saying there are plenty of bush supporters that don't fall into your categories.

R3C · Post by **R3C** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:51 pm

I believe I built that into my statement. I mentioned that it was a generalization, but at the same time, generalizations and stereotypes ARE based on something. Of course there are intelligent Bush supporters. Look at someone like Dennis Miller. If anyone's ever had compelling arguments for Bush, it's him. I also said that not everyone in the mid-west/deep south are stupid, uneducated etc. HOWEVER, I could nearly guarantee that a VERY large portion of people that voted for Bush, did so purely because they believed him when he made it sound like he was the only person who could save this country from terror. It was the fear that he instilled in them that influenced their vote. They didn't think it through long enough to think about all the time he fucked up. The pointless war he started. The fact that perhaps the original 9/11 may have been prevented. He makes it sound like Kerry would have just handed the country over, and any person who thinks about that for a minute should realize that A) this is completely out of line and incorrect, and B) it's not entirely up to the president anyway. Is Bush eradicating terror? No. Is he inviting it? Maybe.

Is he far too Religion oriented for an official position? Yes. Who wants chirstianity forced on them from the government. When is it going to reach the point where, if you don't believe what he/they believe then you're a terrorist. How many more important freedoms do we need restricted, while a freedom like the ability to keep a bunch of assault weapons is not. How about the internet. I think everyone in this forum has complained about the tightening of the internet. Remember when you could say, or copy just about anything you wanted without consequence on here? That day is slowly coming to an end with silly republican legislation. It's likely going to end up being a terrorist offence to share a game with someone someday, because you're hurting a developer. (Ok, that's a pretty big exaggeration, but things are definitely going that way.)

On a different note, how does drilling in some of our last remaining forests, reserves, preserves sound? Yuck!

I think people are stupid, when it's obvious that they didn't think through many important issues. Once again, I'm not saying that applies to everybody, but I know it applies to a ton of people. It's like most of the country just took what he was saying at face value, and didn't give any thought to whether or not it was true. I know Kerry isn't the best alternative. But what I'm saying is that any alternative might be better. If our country is perceived in a better light by other powerful countries, members of the UN, etc. Don't you think they'd be more willing to help us when we need it? They're not exactly jumping at the chance to keep us from getting attacked right now. If we had a better repoir, that might not be the case. If we didn't have someone like Bush yelling at them that "if they aren't with us, they're against us!" they might be more apt to respect us, like us, and help us. The more of the world we have on our side, the better chance we have against someone that might attack us. If everybody hates us, and doesn't give a fuck what happens to us, because our leaders alienate them, what incentive is there for them to jump in and save us if the need ever arises?

Evil Dan · Post by **Evil Dan** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:00 pm

[Begin Rant/] Seriously I would have to agree with the Republican-apologists on this one. Republicans are not stupid. That's right I said it. I'm a hardcore liberal, about as far to the left as I can get. But I'll agree that Republicans and those who voted for Bush aren't stupid. You know who is? Democrats. Yeah that's right. The youth vote was pathetic. And when we have an organized coalition of Young Conservatives who adamantly support their candidate and only a handful of Democrats knocking on doors trying to sway lazy and apathetic voters, that when I think we know who's fault this is.
Republicans are plenty smart. They control 99% of America's wealth. While Democrats try to sway working stiffs that getting them above the poverty line is more important than whether or not they support gay marriage. Dick Cheney and Karl Rove are two of the most intelligent political spinsters this country has ever seen. And the people who voted that way may have been mislead, but can we blame them? Look what their up against.
As far as the Green Party goes. I support their stance, and I have in the past supported their candidate. However, the reality of the situation demands our attention on a two party front. We cannot be lulled into thinking the Green Party stands a chance as a viable option until Instant Run-Off Ballots are a reality. What this country needs (And what clever Republicans oppose) is actual election reform. Not just campaign finance reform, but IRV ballots, and a redistricting of the electoral college. A redistricting would give high population states substantially more sway. We saw that in this election which enabled Florida and Texas even more pull than usual. [/End Rant]

R3C · Post by **R3C** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:27 pm

I think another portion of my stance is being misunderstood here as well. I didn't say that "republicans" were stupid. Just because someone voted for a republican candidate, does not mean they are in fact republicans. All along I've been saying "Bush supporters." It's quite apparent that "full-on"

republicans are much better organized than democrats. To tell you the truth I agree with some conservative views, and some liberal. I'm one of those watch from the fence people, and act on what fits with my personal views when the time comes. You're quite right about the republican fanboys as I'll call them. They are out there pushing it, convincing idle people, etc. Now when I'm talking about stupid Bush supporters, I'm talking about those mindless masses that voted purely based on fear and other feelings and statements made to provoke them. I'm not talking about the people who can make a compelling argument for why they voted how they did. I'm talking about the people that were swayed because they thought the terrorists were going to overrun us the minute Kerry was elected. Because that was a point that Bush (and wisely I might add) played up to the utmost degree. I think there are more mindless Bush supporters than mindless Kerry supporters. The people voting against Bush, I would say more often know why they're doing it, or what they don't like about Bush. The people voting for Bush, while there are those that know why they are, and have their reasons, are largely made up of people that don't have an argument, other than the one Bush gave them. If that makes sense.

Darth Vective · Post by **Darth Vective** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 pm

> "I earned capital in the campaign and now I intend to spend it," Bush said. "And I'm going to spend it for what I told the people I would spend it on."

The common lie goes that Democrats are for big government and tax n' spend. But informed, intelligent people can plainly see that isn't true. They can plainly see that Republicans are now for worldwide government and massive spending, but without taking the necessary precaution of taxing first. Bush is going to spend your pension, period. Dumb is as dumb does, no matter how 'informed' you are. If you think you're going to be smart and individualistic and 'invest' your pension yourself, and services are collapsing all around you and nasty preventable diseases are getting out of hand all around you, then you are dumb. You will not escape the consequences of your dumbness.

Cheney and Rove are not intelligent. They're sick sophisticates but moral morons.

Goemon · Post by **Goemon** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:44 pm

For the record, I'm a lifelong Republican (I still vote that way in many local elections) and I agree with alot of Republican views (if not actual policies to put forth those views). I suppose my generalization of Bush supporters as "not smart" could be argued, but I've yet to hear someone intelligent provide evidence as to why this is untrue. And I'm not expecting Beeeeeeeph to provide that evidence, but maybe someone else could? All I have to go on right now is the, admittedly weak, coverage from the media of a bunch of bible-thumping, gun-toting, bomb-shelter dwelling prairie dogs. I know that is not an accurate portrayal, but that's all that I've been able to encounter. Not living in the US right now also limits my contact with actual, breathing Bush supporters.

I doubt there are many professed Bush supporters on this board, but I would like to hear SOMEONE provide an intelligent reason as to why they support him.

(And I know that Karl Rove is a "political mastermind" or whatever. I'm not looking for evil genius levels of intelligenice whose sole purpose is to manipulate the masses for their own political means. I'm looking for actual logical intelligence based on the concept of doing good for the world.)

Goemon · Post by **Goemon** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:52 pm

LIES!

R3C · Post by **R3C** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:54 pm

Here's a few side notes. I've always hated the bipartisan approach. I think everything comes down more to what the individual attempting to get elected is like. In my view, this candidate would ideally be transparent, with their views in plain sight for everyone to see. It doesn't matter if it fits republican or democratic values. Everything this person stands for should be right out on the table, and people can decide based on how this individual is going to lead the country. It should be candidate to candidate for every governmental position rather than party to party. The parties make it far too easy to blur motives, and points of view.

Here are a few notes about me. I'm opinionated in the extreme. I'm somewhat sarcastic. Like it or not I have a mid-range degree of arrogance. (I'd say it's tasteful most of the time though if there is a such thing as tasteful arrogance.) It suits me. I play devil's advocate more often than not.

Now when I call the others "stupids" this stems partially from the things about me I just listed, and from a generalized post-from-work-friendly viewpoint. I don't have time to be writing posts like I have been. I just haven't really voiced these opinions so publicly before, so I've made a little time. I call them stupid because to me that's what they are. Like I said about 50 times, not all of them are. Maybe not even half, but the ones I'm referring to are. I can make a convincing argument for my point of view too, and am always willing to argue until the cows leave AND come home. I'm sure 3nder will back that one up. So, with a little background, perhaps that will help digest what I'm trying to say, and properly categorize it. You may not agree with it, you may not agree with some aspect of it, and maybe I just didn't clarify it enough, due to time and environmental constraints, but you can't say that I don't know what I'm saying.

Darth Vective · Post by **Darth Vective** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:10 pm

> Bush, who has held fewer solo press conferences than any recent president, frequently cut off reporters trying to ask follow-up questions, quipping he could do so "now that I've got the will of the people at my back."

Clever! Smart and informed! I like his friendly, down-home guy style!

R3C · Post by **R3C** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:25 pm

Me too! A guy who can mend fences, goes a long way with me.

Hey retardos, why don't you walk over here. You've been out mendin' fences.... [Hey Retardos song by Space Ghost]

I'm also a fan of how he's against terrorism, but has just destroyed a country based on false claims of nasty weapons. He attacks them, they don't have what he says they have, they get pissed and fight back, so we push harder. Hmmmm....

What's he actually done besides give everyone $300. He didn't even really give everyone $300. He gave everyone $300 of their own money. Pfft. And that's pushing it to say that he did that for any good reason. He should have kept his frickin' refund, and given it to schools or something.

What's he done that's any good globaly? Has he secured any new working relationships with anyone? Has he helped any small struggling countries in need?

Or...

Has he just plain pissed everyone off. He sucks. Plain and simple. Perhaps we needed a better alternative, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't suck.

Beeeph · Post by **Beeeph** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:00 pm

I suppose my generalization of Bush supporters as "not smart" could be argued, but I've yet to hear someone intelligent provide evidence as to why this is untrue. And I'm not expecting Beeeeeeeph to provide that evidence, but maybe someone else could?

You're on the wrong forum Goemon. I think there are only two people in here that voted for bush, including me, and I'm not about to argue that kinda evidence in a room full of crazed leftys. If you want that kind of debate, look elsewhere.

Darth Vective · Post by **Darth Vective** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:08 pm

That is, crazed lefties who are prepared to talk substance like 'pension reform', 'disease control', 'foreign policy', 'energy policy', if only the dumb Bush voters would rise to it.

Goemon · Post by **Goemon** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:09 pm

Beeph: I recognize that and I don't want to debate you about it. I think you made it clear in some earlier thread that you don't want to and I accept that.

I guess we're all just pissing in the wind here. I'll try to venture into some more conservative forae and see what I find; I'll report back later

Goemon · Post by **Goemon** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:11 pm

Whoops! I didn't mean to pick this guy

I meant to pick this guy

If I had meant to stick my tongue out at you, I would've chosen this guy

Darth Vective · Post by **Darth Vective** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:33 pm

Yeah, I'm outta here again. This is still teh likkle cute monkeys forum, and Beeeph is still a big hard Republican wet with nothing to say for himself.

Tata.

teh Forum

teh Forum

The most important week of our lives