teh Forum

If you haven't heard about the video that was recently released of the beheading of Nick Berg, it's tragic. I first heard about it this morning while talking with some people around noon and have been bombarded with its details all day long. I happened to see the front page of a news paper which showed Berg bound, sitting up on the floor and 5 masked Islamic extremists standing behind him. I was very disturbed to see the picture especially after noticing the masked man in the middle was holding a large blade.

The feeling that came over me was of pure horror.

This kid went to Iraq in hopes to find a job repairing radio towers, apparently. I came home tonight and read up some more on the story as well as the translation of the speech the militants gave before acting out the atrocity. Religion is a fucked up thing. It can change someone's life for the better, or it can render them a mindless murderer, killing in the name of God. Just before they killed him they made many comments regarding Islam, and how westerners (Christians or not, because in their eyes we are all Christians) we will all die in the manner which was about to be performed. The men then held Nick down while chanting "God is great" and through his screams they decapitated him. The militants speak only in Arabic and it seems as though Nick didn't know what was about to happen to him, until it began. I hope that is true because if so he didn't mentally suffer previous to what they did. It makes me sick to my stomach.

Being the person I am, I opted to view the video for myself. I've seen one of the "Faces of Death" movies, and the "Banned from TV" series and they don't hold a candle to what this footage did to me. I'm one of those people who lives in my own world and can easily forget what people from our country are dealing with in this life, whether they be military, civilians just trying to help, or friends of the murdered innocent who may or may not be just like me.

This life is real, SO real. It's precious and amazing. What I saw today really gave me a big wake up call. Sobering in the most disturbing way imaginable.

Life is so short and I wish that such hate didn't exist on this planet. Why? How?? could someone do that? How could anyone do that to another person? I feel like I want to get off of this planet, I want to be somewhere peaceful, where people don't live in fear of eachother. Where a young man isn't decapitated on video in relatiation for abuse and torture of someone else. It's a never ending cycle of extreme violence and I don't see it ending anymore, ever. It seems that it's too far gone for these people to stop and that scares the shit out of me.

Why must humans hate and kill in such a grotesque and brutal way? These questions I've asked myself all my life, and I don't think I will ever truly understand. I really hope there is a God, and that one day he will save us all.

I am with you on this one Bosman. Historically religion seems to have been used a lot for justifying ones agenda rather than for personal gain. I know a lot of people who are religious, and some of them have a very personal relationship with their God, and they don't push it upon anyone that walks by. On the other hand, while I was married to the unnameable hosebeast, I went to a lot of Jehovah's Witness functions (purely out of support for her) and saw and heard some of the most vile things that could be called religion. I'll be the first one to tell you that I'm no expert on religion. I have my own views. Pretty much they can be summed up with treating other people with respect and that covers a lot of ground right there in my mind.

What happened to Nick Berg was indeed tragic. Brutal. Deplorable. Dispicable. There are however, lots of questions that are being raised about the circumstances that befell Mr. Berg.

http://www.unobserver.com/index.php?pag ... 1663&blz=1

I don't know what to believe. All I know is that killing people is wrong. Whether it's by letting people starve, dropping oil can bombs on civilians (both of which are happening right now in Darfur, Sudan), or by cutting their heads off, killing people is just wrong. Plain and simple. I don't give a rats ass how you spin your theological text, most underlying principles of religion denounce killing your fellow man.

It won't stop though unless something drastic happens. Like Agent said, if there is a God, please let him help us all. White Supremacists have used the Bible to further their racist agenda. The same Bible that GW reads-with the words of the God that tells him that he will win the next election. The same Bible that kept my grandparents happy and connected during their more than 50 year marriage. Religion and the interpretation thereof is indeed confusing and convoluted.

I have been at a crossroads for a long time now. I don't know how to put into words what's going on to my children. Granted, one's six and the other one is still a fetus, so my explanation will have plenty of time to simmer, but I still don't know how to reconcile what's going on in the world. I know I've talked about the neighborhood before, but I am thinking that it's the only way that we might be able to fix this thing, unless we just flex our American muscle and kill the planet. A lot of the terrorism stemmed from our unending support for Israel. The Muslim world feels like they are in Holy War (Jihad) to counter this. Maybe if we didn't have the great Crusader as our president, NeoCons and extremists Christians wouldn't be pushing an agenda that those people don't want to hear.

The only things that I can be sure about any more are Music, Taxes, and that I'm completely fucking stupid.


By the way, I didn't view the video. I have been shying away from the gore myself. Not that I have a weak stomach particularly, I just haven't seen much. I still see things from those extended Too hot and Faces sessions.

Two very eloquently written statements guys. Thanks.

I find it really interesting that this should come at the same time as the recent gore viewing thread. I will obviously not be watching the video. If it can make Matt react that badly and Erik shy away then I know I don't want to have it hovering through my mind.

A lot of people have asked me when I tell them that I visited Hiroshima if I saw the Nuclear Bomb Museum. I have not. And I always have to justify it by explaining that I really don't feel I need to view the graphic images of humans my country murdered to understand the atrocity of the act. I am rarely met with agreement. Last month I found myself in Nagasaki and decided I needed to visit the similar museum there. It wasn't as bad as I expected; certainly sad and poignant but not unnecessarily gruesome. It did give me a very clear picture of the devastation caused by the second nuclear blast (roughly 40,000 human lives ended instantly - 60,000 injured, many dying over the next few days to years) and it, along with other like museums serve to remind us of the brutal violence that man is capable of committing towards fellow man.

I can't seem to decide whether viewing something shocking in this way, on the lite end of the scale the museum and the Berg video on the other hand, is a positive thing. I know that I was surprised at how positive my museum experience was, but I would do everything I could right now to avoid viewing the tape. However, if people like Bos (not to pick on you) see this video and can turn it into something positive, then by all means. What I am most afraid of is Americans, and especially Americans in charge, taking this and using it to fuel more hate.

How is it that someone can have a reaction like Bos did and say "Life is so short and I wish that such hate didn't exist on this planet. Why? How?? could someone do that? How could anyone do that to another person?" yet another can see the same thing, and just want to hurt Islamic people back (talk of nuking Islamic countries?!?!). How does such a polarization exist in our species?

This kind of reminds me of the movie Brokedown Palace where two girls travel to Thailand and on the way from there to Hong Kong get used as “mules†for smuggling some heroin in a carry on bag and receive life imprisonment in Thai jail. Supposedly, they both really didn’t know what they were doing by carrying on these drugs onto the plane and only one of the girls actually had anything. But both were arrested since one was an accessory to the other. Even if the drugs were planted on the girls and they were both ignorant of this fact a crime was still committed in the eyes of the Thai government. They were both simply victims of circumstance.

Regarding the chanting of “God is great†while decapitating him – maybe they wanted to be God-like? After all God kills – and one day he will save us by killing us…and you thought killing was wrong! It’s Godly!

God doesn't exist.

Prove it.

I think it would be better for someone to prove that there is one. There's no evidence of it, and that being the case, someone would have to prove it's existence. If there was more evidence for a god than against a god, the opposite would be true. Then I would have to prove it.

avoiding the question....all you have to say is, "I can't prove it, because I don't know - it's just what I beleive..."

You didn't ask a question. You told me to prove it.

Thanks for the great posts guys. I went through a whole faces of death, etc, stage and I have that natural instinct to want to see something people say is shocking and unbelievable, but I think after reading what you said, Bos... I'm going to avoid seeing the video. I suppose I don't want those images floating around in my psyche either.

3nd: Pat on the back for going to the nagasaki museum, but thumbs down for not wanting to visit holocaust museums in general. I don't know if nagasaki changed your mind, but the purpose of those museums is not to show graphic violence or gore... they are meant to remind future generations of the horrors mankind is capable of when their leaders are left to do what they will with their power. I think America at this point in time needs to remember the lessons of history more than ever. Iraq is day by day looking more like a vietnam type war, yet we are walking down the same road. Too bad there arent atomic bomb museums in america where they are most needed... perhaps if americans were educated better about the horrors their country has perpetrated people wouldnt be so quick to say idiotic things like "lets just nuke them and wipe them all out."

And as far as religion goes as a tool for motivating people to kill....
I've been reading a book about zen buddhism lately, and I don't really subscribe to everything in their school of thought, but there is one great chapter in the beginning of the book about beliefs. At the core of Zen buddism is the idea that you shouldnt absolutely believe in anything (sounds nihilistic, but it's not exactly). In my meager understanding, it is just basically meant to say that you should constantly question everything you believe to be true. If you look at religion, it is basically just a series of beliefs. Undoubted belief is the real problem. Once people have unquestionable belief (such as most religions call for), they are capable of the most horrific atrocities. I have no doubt that bush and the neocons wholeheartedly "believe" that they are changing the world for the better. But that means that anything comes at the cost of acting in their belief. Militant Islamists who are fighting their jihads, "believe" that the people they kill, and even the innocent muslims they may kill in their suicide attacks are dying for their god... which they unquestioningly believe in.

It may sound trite, but humanity has unfortunately developed the tools to destroy itself way before it has become mature enough to be able to handle that power, or realize why there is no need for it in the 1st place.

In any event... we are living through a really scary time, and I dont' think anything short of huge change in America will prevent serious disaster in the near future. Paradoxically, I kind of think that it will take something huge to change the minds and attitudes of americans....

I've seen pictures of corpses who were lynched, raped and stuff. I was really depressed after I read that book,so I don't want to watch those kind of stuff by curiosity anymore.

If you'd like to know atomic disastr in Hiroshima, I recomend this manga Hadashi-no-Gen/ Barefoot Gen. I watched this when I was third grade student at elementaly school.
http://www.theblackmoon.com/BarefootGen/bomb.html

I've been reading about Buddism in Tibet. I'm kind of started believing in reincarnation because of Dalai Lama and my sister's firend. She is my older sister's classmate from high school,and she has very strong sence that she can sees ghosts and one's future. I haven't met her, but stories of her experiences that I heard from my sister are almost scary. My sister told me that she said reincarnation exists. I think I'm a skeptic person, but I sort of started believing in that because I can't ignore these fucts.

http://www.tibet.com/DL/discovery.html

Fairy tales. Ask yourself, what are the evidentiary standards for these things? Imagine what stake the Grand Poobah of Tibet has in having you believe the story of Ba Ka in the lake, and how rigorous the bullshit check is before they chuck it up on the website. It's a bit like the Elders of the tribal areas of Pakistan 'conducting an investigation' and 'concluding that Israel was responsible for the World Trade Center atrocity'. Do you believe that?

Reincarnation: Isn't the population of the world increasing? Where do all those extra souls come from? Extinct species of the Amazon? Planet Boron?

Watching the Nick Berg video might bring you back down to earth, unless you then go off and read that it was conducted by Mossad in Abu Graib. (BTW, don't go believing that Nick Berg was 'an American businessman', and a 'really smart guy'. He was an idiot who shouldn't have been there at all, sad and horrible as his death is.)

Reincarnation: Isn't the population of the world increasing? Where do all those extra souls come from? Extinct species of the Amazon? Planet Boron?

I wonder same thing, too. Maybe people who have died in the past are born again?
Next weekend, an assistant professor from Waseda University is going to have a lecture about Ontology of Dalai Lama at Jyouen-temple, Shinjyuku, Tokyo. I'll go to take this lecture. If I have a chance to ask, I'll ask that question. If you have any other questions about Tibet and Dalai Lama, I'd ask it for you.

Isn't it possible to have evolutionary reincarnation? I thought that beings could "advance" from plants to insects to puppy dogs to humans. They then have 80 lives as humans before they ascend to another plane.

I'm not sure though.

This thread is totally going off on a tangent, but... i'll try to help steer it further off course.

I've always thought the idea of reincarnation made sense, and was more or less a plausible explanation for what happens when you die, but on the other hand... based on some of the stuff I've read about zen, and applying a little logic, I'm not so sure I believe the theory of reincarnation really holds much water.

First off, it's a theory someone living came up with, noone can prove it (go ahead... try to reference the dali llama as evidence). Just like those theories that tell us some white guy from the middle east who died 2000 years ago is watching you and judging your every action. I'm sure there have been millions of theories on what happens to you after you die, but only the real comforting ones became popular and got passed down through the centuries. a few variatons on:

a. behave well (according to set rules), and you'll get candy and a spot in the clouds when you die

or

b. behave well, and you get to move on to a better life next time.

Reincarnation is easy to believe because its a very comforting concept... "wooT! even if my life sucks now, Ill get a better deal next time!" It's a nice ego-stroking idea, to think that your "soul" will continue to exist forever. I want to believe in it, but if you apply a little dab of occam's razor, which makes more sense? that you have some intangible energy that is separate from your body and mind, which travels from life to life, or... that when you die, that's it... over! you cease to exist, end of story.
The first choice is a much more romantic theory of existence, but I have a feeling thats all that it is...

I keep a couple of souls in a tin in my desk draw. Sometimes when I've had a bad day, I give the tin a good long shake and put it on the window sill in the sun. I don't know who in hell the souls belong to, but I'm fucked if I'm going to open the lid and see.