teh Forum

So...I was officially O.K. with not being involved with contributing to l)0nk3y but a few things have changed recently. First, the main reason I didn't want to do anything was that I was just too lazy (and too drunken). Second, I was burnt out on programming. And third, once it was actually done - then what? We play it a few times and forget about it? Probably...

Well, somehow the laziness and burnt outness have gone away - I think it has a lot to do with moving into my new bright spacious place and living with a responsible adult so some of that seems to have rubbed off on me.

Ok, so then what about the third thing? Once the game is done we play it but instead of forgetting about it we publish it. I just found out that an old friend(associate really) who used to work at Microsoft started his own company that publishes casual games. They don't fund development they just take completed games and sell them. So all the time we spend working on l)0nk3y we get zero compensation but then we have no deadlines and can take as long as we want to finish it. But once it's done and is actually a game that people would actually play, which I'm sure would not be a problem with this game, then we might be able to get some cash if the game is successful. I have no idea what the return is for a successful casual game is but it's better than nothing.

I don't know any more of the details yet other than there is a decent game API that is available to use that many of the other casual games have been using. Having that would mean that we could just get right to the fun part of actually writing the game code instead of writing system specific support code. This is good because we wouldn't have to deal with video hardware config issues. I think the API may actually be cross platform as well.

One last thing, this doesn't exclusively have to be about l)0nk3y - maybe there is a better game to do? I don't know I can't really think of any because the only other games that I have done in my spare time were AstroCrap 2000(2player 2d vector game with two ships that fly around and shoot each other) and Strip Breakout...I don't think those two would be as successful as l)0nk3y though.

Right, we should get started then.

The cool thing about DonX0rZ is that there have been MANY failed attempts at releasing a MULE clone. If we were successful, a lot of people would appreciate the work. The other thing we have to be careful about though, is that EA owns the MULE rights. We have to make sure that we aren't going to be sued. (if the game will be published)

My thoughts were to make MULE with extras. The core game should be close to the original I think. Some enhancements like more items to trade, underground contraband trade, players being able to trade land plots, having TONS of land plots, net play, etc. will make the game quite cool. I was thinking that persistent net play using a client and server type setup (the server being simple enough just to run on anybody's PC in the background,) would be the best way. This way, the game could be persistent. You can just save off your assets and character, then jump back into the game at any time to get more wealth. There wouldn't be a clear-cut winner or end of game, but at any time you could get a stat list of everyone in your colony (server.) Having tons of land to buy is essential to this, because you always want to be able to do more with the game if it's going to be persistent. There also needs to be just enough variety in play to make it worth playing still when the world is full of purchased land. Contraband trading will be nice. There can be a way of acquiring illegal goods (like when the pirate ships land or something,) which you can sell for exorbitant amounts of money to other players, or to NPCs that hang out in the pub. This could purely be a way to make money to keep it simple. (the actual items would be useless in practice) The pub "scene" should be a lot more involved than before. You can go into the pub, chat with the other players, trade items, perhaps some not-useful but funny things like getting wacky and getting tossed out for X amount of time, etc. Auctions can happen at regular intervals and an alarm or other notification can sound when it's about to start. Then all players interested in auctioning off items have a certain amount of time to get to the auction house, or they have to wait until the next one.

The server just keeps track of what each player has while they're in the game, manages schedules (for auctions, when traders come to the pub, when land grants occur, etc.) When a player exits, their assets are saved to a local file (client side.)

Anyway, I'll be happy to work on sound, game design, testing, UI stuff, etc.

I have also become inspired by my recent move.

Mule with extras would be cool. I'd say we definitely would have to try to stay as close to the original game design as possible. The more land that there is available essentially means the longer you have to play in order to finish it - so we could have a game last for weeks if we set the land plot count high enough and then since the game is persistent this would be a totally reasonable thing to do. That was one of the things I didn't like about the original mule is that sometimes it ended to quickly - I think this would be a great improvement but the game must eventually end. I think if we didn't have the game end with a first founder we would be straying too far from the original design and it would be more like simcity where eventually you just get bored with it.

As far as getting sued goes, I would imagine that as long as we RENAME EVERYTHING SPECIFIC to M.U.L.E. then we should be fine. How far from the original name would we need to go though? Take smithore for example, would any ore derivative be okay? What about crystite? Could we use methite? Is that far enough from the original name? I would think so.

We probably wouldn't have to stray too far from the old names, but we could actually make up completely new elements/minerals/etc. Having the game end would be helpful I suppose. As long as the size and duration can be changed people can play for as long as they like. I think a two week game would be totally cool. People could enter or exit as much as they wanted. Aside from chatting in the pub, there could also be inter-colonial mail. You could leave messages or items in another player's mailbox if they aren't playing.

If the game has a time limit like M.U.L.E., then it doesn't matter too much how much land there is. The game could end without all the plots being taken. It might be cool to be able set several options like land size, time limit, etc at the beginning.
While we're thinking of new features, we might want to incorporate seasons into our donkey planet. A little more graphic work, but it would be interesting to have varying farm output at different times of year.

Excellent idea on the seasons. Another thing that can be tracked by the server.

The main reason I think the game should end is that the end sequence is really a feature of the game - so to not have the game end would mean that we were taking something away from the gaming experience instead of adding to it. However, we could still do it if we had different game modes - I suppose you could compare it to deathmatch mode in an fps where the game just keeps going and going and going until you get sick of playing it.

I want in! I'll be a grunt programming bitch or just a look out for squirrels and/or suspicious looking birds while this expedition finally makes way! But I want in!

along with mining ores, can we cultivate certain herbs ? can we incorporate the buying, selling, and trading of alien prostitutes that work the back alley of the pub for extra player income? It doesn't matter when it's Arcturian, baby!

Ok then, looks like we have all the resources we need for design, programming, art, and sound.

J3rk, we need l)0nk3y title screen/end game music for inspirational purposes! Wait, that was all the music there was for mule - the rest were all sound effects.

Ok so next we need to agree on a rough idea of what the game is going to be/look/play like - not necessarily specifics but just a general idea. I have two big questions in my head and they are:

Should the game be 2d or 3d?

Should we keep it turn based or not?

not turn based. Everbody can run around outfitting their donkeys at the same time. The only critical turn-like element would be the time until the next auction.
2d could work, but Warcraft 3esque 3d might be cool...
I think a big open map with a small town in the center would be cool..
maybe entering the town switches to a new camera or even a prerendered fixed camera shot...
If there's lots of land area, we could also think about having more than 1 town or outlying trading posts or the like....

Warcraft 3esque 3d would allow us to do some cool stuff like zoom out but I think the camera angle should be fixed so it still feels like the old m.u.l.e. 3d will be a lot more work but it will give us a lot more especially if we were to have non-interactive sequences or something we could zoom in and watch the mule go crazy or whatever...

Ok if it's not turn based then I wonder if there should be some kind of status window that tells you what the other players are doing so you have some idea of what is going on.

Actually it could be a chat/status window where key events are brodcast to all players?

stuff like:

*mcnevin buys new l)0nk3y
*mcnevin cannot afford to outfit l)0nk3y for whatever
*j3rk captures the wiley mountain zeback!!!
etc...

Of course if you have nothing to do you could spy on other players instead of just watching the text.

Will reply with goodies soon. Was totally sick last night and today. Lots of ideas... must... typ.. .... .. . .. .. ........ ... .. ...

Yeah... the Warcraft 3 camera was fixed except that you could tilt up and down, so maybe just a fixed camera with zooming options would be good. Text status window thingy would indeed be good too. It could also be used to display the news about Glack elves and pirate ships...

So there is no word yet from Mr. Casual Games guy but he has a good excuse - the 2006 Game Developers Conference is going on right now.

Since I hadn't heard from the guy yet I was checking out some casual games and they look pretty easy to do actually - they really kind of remind me of how games used to be back in the days when computers really weren't that powerful or capable of much so the game design had to make up for it by making a game that was just really fun to play. It seems like to be a succesful casual game it has to be really fun, take no time to learn how to play, and something that a lot of people would be interested in like puzzle games or something. I guess one of the most successful casual games right now is one called BeJeweled from PopCap. I've played it a bit and it's fun like so many of those old puzzle games that we played through mame. I'm really thinking that if we finish donkey maybe we should try and do a clone of some older game like landmaker or something. I think it'd really be worth a shot and I shall look into it further.

I'm actually in the casual games business right now. May turn out to be helpful. Anyway, I like the idea of the WC3 graphic system, or perhaps a super-fancy 2D system. The town needs to have plenty to do in it. Pub, two different donkey vendors perhaps, (with variations,) outfitters, and perhaps the actual store could have items for sale outside the auctions. It definitely shouldn't be turn based. Everyone should be able to choose what they are up to at any given time, but everyone should be alerted when something that they can participate in is about to happen. Perhaps you could also build racing donkeys, and place bets at the track. Could be a simple sub-game to add to the pub gambling. I plan to develop in more detail the contraband trading idea. We can have a schedule of when various traders/pirates/dealers/etc. are in the system. If you have opted to trade with them, you are notified when they arrive. There needs to be several of them, and you can only deal with one of them at a given time. That way different people will get different deals, items, etc. Some things can be sold to the store, while other things can only be traded with other players, who can then trade them with a different dealer/pirate/whatever. This will be rather simple, but add enough variety to make the trading fun. Perhaps there can be a minor investment system, where you could ACTUALLY invest in things like artificial dumbness, instead of just being handed to you as a bonus. I'll try and get these ideas laid out nicely perhaps in a flow chart or something like that. The schedule should be random, but within constraints. (for example, pirates land randomly, but must be within a 2 to 6 "month" period or something like that.

Different levels of donkeys is totally cool - like you have the consumer grade donkey that you buy when you don't have any money but it breaks almost immediately cuz it's not waterproof/windproof/sunproof, then there is the commercial grade donkey that is just a standard donkey and then there is the super heavy duty industrial strength donkey mil spec 810 certified that never breaks and can defend himself against glak elves, pirates etc... - but it is really expensive...and heavy so he takes forever to get to his plot.

yeah! a stock market would be cool! hehe

The mil spec 810 sounds good. I'd put those on my methite plots, that way, when the pirates come they can't get it!!!! Stupid pirates. Stupid little glak elves. We could implement a fairly simple stock market too. We'd just leave commodities out of it, and just have a few high-risk investments available.

Being able to upgrade/ decorate your D.O.N.K.E.Y may help it to win first prize in the contest.

It could simply pick the one with the most customizations. That way you'd have to decide if the prize money was worth the expense. Either that, or when the contest starts, 3 colonists have to join the judging panel or something like that.

Wow, most D0 talk in a long ass time. I like it... but I think that even with different names it could still be a major legal issue if we tried to make money out of the deal. Does that really have to be a part of it?

I'll be looking into it pretty soon with the casual games publisher guy and see what he thinks about it since he is in the business and all. I think the main issue with marketing our clone is there would be limitations on humor possibly because something that would be totally funny to us might not make sense or be appropriate(?) for the casual games audience. The other thing with this game would be that I'm thinking that it might not actually even fall under the category of a casual game anymore because it's not totally obvious how to play it. For me making money from donkey was kind of serendipitous to becoming interested in casual games development so even if donkey was done and it wasn't being sold I'd still be interested in making a casual game especially if it were totally on our terms. Obviously I can't do this alone though and I thought maybe there would be others who are interested and want to contribute and possibly make some money. I dunno, it seems pretty realistic to me, make some simple fun games and then setup a website to sell them and make a little extra cash. I'll look into it further and share what I find out.

I think we're going to be fine with the legal business. I thought about it, and since we're moving from a turn based system to a real-time system now, that should be enough. At that point, it becomes a completely different game. As long as we keep the names of things unique enough, I think we'll be cool.

Didn't think about that - it is a pretty big change in the desgin of the game...now what would be funny is if we added some kind of attack donkey that could attack the other persons plots - then it's really a real time strategy game...

The ability to deploy a small team of glak-elves to loosen the bolts on a player's d0Nk3y would be pretty cool.

Maybe we should just have events like donkey racing and donkey battle.
People could place bets and there could be cash prizes.

That sounds good to me. Simple non-interactive events, place bets, result based on die-roll type of operation or something of the sort.

Yeah did anyone ever play mail order monsters on the 64???

Perhaps if you want to enter your own racing or battle donkeys in the events, you can purchase upgrades to increase their chances of winning.
At the donkeymod shop. Maybe you can take the restrictor plate off. This might not be street-legal though....

Give the Red Donkey a little more juice!