The most important week of our lives

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:41 pm

I don't eat haw flakes.

Too bad you can't have a conversation without insulting someone. You're the first person I've insulted on this forum. It's a testiment to your credibility. You have none. I'm truely sorry Ender invited you back to the forum, you're a plague, worse than the most staunch right-wing republican.

It's people like you who believe the world, as is, will reach a type 1 civilization. You're wrong, I don't think the war was a good idea, however, it happened and the best plan is NOT to leave them hanging now. Iraqis who long for a civilized life in their country depend on it. Iraqis who wish to prosper from their own economy and resources depend on it. People who were oppressed or not allowed to worship as they please depened on it. The generations of future Iraqis who had nothing more to look forward to than the iron rule of the Hussein dynasty depend on it.

Invading Iraq threw a wrench in to what could have been a smooth oust of Hussein, and I'm sorry it couldn't have happened that way. However, I'm not going to form opinions based on antiwar propagand and whine about how we need to pull out all the troops, etc. It's just not realistic.

I don't think the Bush administration did the right thing by changing their agendas from Afghanistan to Iraq. It was bullshit, and for that, I could never trust Bush. The fact that I don't trust Bush doesn't mean I automatically think Hussein was a great ruler who was doing his best to bring our planet to Utopia. He's a murderous lunatic, which is why I can't understand how you could support him.

Darth Becile · Post by **Darth Becile** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:07 pm

Bos, I insult you because you say things like
> I can't understand how you could support him
I don't. Never have. But in the real, non-black and white world, a lot of Iraqis in fact did, with full recognition of his horrible vices. I try to understand why, and maybe acknowledge some of the reasons. That isn't the same as support. I think perhaps Iraqis have more excuse than Bush supporters.

As for 'whining', is suggesting that stopping troops getting killed for nothing, and killing civilians for nothing, simple whining? Is that what you think? Keeping troops there is not realistic at all, and the UK is edging closer to acknowledging that.

If we don't pull out all the troops, how do you see things going from now? Articles I've seen in the Telegraph and Financial Times (not the untouchable Guardian mind you) hint that elections in January will be meaningless and will not lead to stability. Do you not acknowledge this possibility? And if you do, then what?

BTW, www.antiwar.com has articles by all sorts of people who are not averse to war per se. It also has links to news items in a whole swathe of media. Don't dismiss it as propaganda without looking at. To do so would be ... ignorant.

Goemon · Post by **Goemon** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:19 pm

Ocean: I'm going to quote some of your post below, just to make sure I try to respond to it all.

...the US and the UK should first of all apologize and repent. That would have to involve the perpetrators being punished in some way.

Since we've already delved into the world of fantasy with your proposed apology, I'm curious about what kind of punishment you envision. Monetary reparations to...Iraqi citizens? How is that even calculated? I should note that I don't agree with this suggestion because the French, Germans, Russians and Turks (to name a few) would also have to pay up according to your logic; they stole from the common Iraqi people just as much as the current "war profiteers" are doing. Maybe their money had less blood on it, but they still stole.

They should stop talking about a war on terror in Iraq, because there isn't one. Taking these unprecedented steps is the only way to get started on a solution.

Agreed. The stubborn continued efforts by the Bush administration to draw a pre-war link between Al Qaeda and Saddam's government is counter-productive. The fact that there are terrorists ("anti-coalition forces"?) in Iraq now is merely a product of the invasion.

The next step is to demilitarize. Why take up defensive positions? What purpose would that serve? If demilitarizing involves a complete pullout of all personnel, so be it.

I disagree that the US/UK can just up and leave. They're in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" quagmire (admittedly, of their own making). I don't think it's folly to expect that an unstabilized Iraq is big trouble for the Middle East and the world. I think the US/UK forces need to be there for at least the next 4 months (through the elections and then some). If they reduce forces/activities up until that point, so be it. I don't think it's even possible, logistically, to pull out before then.

It may then be possible for NGOs from many nations to go back to Iraq safely. If the US and UK still care at all, they can fund foreign NGOs or any indigenous initiatives that meet honest criteria. They owe a lot of money in reparations. If other countries want to hold their conference on Iraq, they should limit themselves to discussing what constitutes honest criteria for support.

Would this be UN-led? btw, I think it would be naive to believe that other countries would not try to fill the vacuum with their own profiteering schemes.

Once all the propaganda is cleared about how Iraqis can't live together, how the 'terrorists' are all nihilists, how Iran will step into the vacuum, then what you are left with is the remains of a state that will have to coalesce to survive, and a large number of educated people who realize that need, and strongly desire that outcome.

Do you envision continued bloodshed in this scenario? Or do you envision that once the US and UK leave, it will be only Iraqis left? What about other foreigners who flocked to Iraq to join the Jihad against the coalition? Will they just up and leave too? What do you make of reports of Iran sending clerics into Iraq at the onset of the invasion? I expect they would increase such activities if the US/UK left Iraq unstable.

Can you see anything else working?

Unfortunately, I don't foresee any apology forthcoming and I certainly don't expect anything in the way of "reparations" unless the US/UK believe they can profit from it somehow. Moral/Ethical profit doesn't count here. It should count, but that doesn't sell back home.

I think the US/UK need to stay there at least through the elections. If they can make some "gestures" to the Iraqi people before that (ie pulling out some troops?), that may help. It would be best if the anti-coalition forces would come into the political process also, but they realize they can't win that way. So they just continue to act as disruptive forces in the process. I think you're being too idealistic if you believe that all of the Iraqis will suddenly get into a group hug once the US/UK leave.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:26 pm

This isn't ignorant?

>Ask yourself too if those policemen and the innocent citizens of Falluja would have been killed under Saddam's rule.

Sounds like a Sadam sympathy to me. What you're saying here is that Sadam was a sound leader.

Darth Becile · Post by **Darth Becile** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:41 pm

Goemon, it's just an outline. I don't know exactly what would happen or what is required. For example, an apology might be a simple admission that mistakes were made and that the costs to Iraqi citizens have been unnecessarily high. Punishing those responsible for abuses in Abu Ghraib and elsewhere might be enough. Make some examples, and give some examples. There isn't even freedom of the press in Iraq now. How could something like that hurt? The hypocrisy metre is off the dial now, and everybody in Iraq (apart from the grateful few on Bos' site) can see that.

As for reparations, the US already has a fund ready for 'rebuilding'. Call it reparations or a gift or whatever. Who cares? Just make it do something useful instead of killing people and 'security'.

What Iran really does and does not do, I don't know. The situation has been fogged by so much demonizing, it's hard to tell. So what if they send in clerics, or some other country sends in guys with sandals on and AK-47s? Look what we sent in for crying out loud! I'd take an Iranian cleric over DPU in my neighbourhood any day.

I'm not naiive. I don't see any good options, and I see Iraq being a hellhole for a long time to come. Better to face up to that now and try little steps towards ameliorating it, instead of making it worse as we are now.

Darth Becile · Post by **Darth Becile** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:49 pm

Bos, there are scales of awfulness. What Saddam did to Falluja and what we are doing to Falluja are terrible - but you can see the difference in degree for yourself. It wasn't a free fire zone under Saddam.

Afghans tolerated the Taliban because they brought stability. People who are at the brink generally choose shitty stability over anarchy. I don't know how you can call me naiive when you're buying all that 'democracy in a gift wrapped package' stuff.

Like most of the rest of the world, I'd have been quite happy to leave Saddam alone and not encouraged him. It was our countries that supported him. Don't go forgetting that now...

Post by **enderzero** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:40 pm

As amusing as it may be at times, a flame war only serves to discredit the participators and shift the focus from the topic at hand. I am sorry to say that Ocean, it is you that are propagating this (or this Darth Becile persona - how about going back to the more compassionate or at least personable Ocean11 account? Need the password reset?).

That being said (and seemingly often the case) I tend to agree with most of Ocean's plan. My values point me in the direction that man should under no circumstances raise a gun at another man, and that every step must be taken to avoid warfare. America should start the accelerated demilitarization of Iraq, removing all personnel that carry a gun within the next 6 months (except, realistically, maybe some personnel for training of Iraqis). At what point did top brass in Vietnam realize they were fighting a battle where the cost far outweighed the value? Will that be the litmus that finally brings the troops home from Iraq?

Of course, there is no way I expect rapid demilitarization to become a reality. Not that the outcome really mattered, but with the Bush's victory it almost makes romanticizing about possible solutions easier because the possibilities are so absurd. Yet, I have to stick to my ideals when it comes to the question of what "should be done." I have yet to hear a very realistic answer that gets close to them.

There is no question in my mind that Saddam was a despot and cruel human being. However, I think it was wrong for America to use any violent strength to remove him from power. Violence can only propagate more violence. There have got to be other ways to fix the problems of the world.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:26 pm

/agree

mistasparkle* · Post by mistasparkle* » Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:01 pm

I'm not up to date on this thread... i'll read up tonight and get back to topic, but I discovered William Gibson's blog today. There's a post on there from a few days ago written by a friend of his which I thought was really poignant (and certainly relevant to what we discuss here):

'The United States has become a country spoiled by unmerited privilege and its own profound sense of superiority. Most of the "brightest and the best" have chosen to pursue their own personal wealth and power rather than engaging in true service to the community or to the country at large. As a people, we no longer live up to our former billing. In fact, the entire concept of "a people" has been lost, along with the ideology that supports it. All that remains is the shred of this improbable idea that we all, somehow, can be rich and beautiful. The degree to which we participate in that dream is the degree of our culpability. It determines the character of the American people, it determines our domestic inequities and it determines our foreign policy.

On both sides of the political fence, the participants are convinced that they are right and the other side is wrong. Even my liberal friends make no effort to question how they may have contributed to this disaster, how their own intellectual smugness may have alienated those less able to understand the implications of the current political direction. We question the moral majority, but we do not question our own cloistered vantage point. In my opinion, the dream is what divides us, because it is the dream that draws the dividing line between the bad and the beautiful, the rich and the poor.'

-- Michael St. John Smith

More of Gibson's insight here: Link

Post by **enderzero** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:16 pm

Michael St. John Smith (re-quoted) wrote:...how their own intellectual smugness may have alienated those less able to understand the implications of the current political direction.

That hits close to home with the discussion at the beginning of this thread.

mistasparkle* · Post by mistasparkle* » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:05 am

Some raw footage of Fallujah:

http://www.fallujah.us/

...I sure hope nobody's home in those apartments.

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:14 pm

If there is...they are dumb.

If there is one universal language in the world, it's called "explosions and gunshots coming this way".

danz · Post by **danz** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:03 pm

that page brings down my firefox faster than we smoked osama out of those caves...

wait...that is not saying much...

anyways, seems that any embeded windows media spanks my firefox bad...what to do??

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:44 pm

Hmm, i use firefox...doesn't seem to have any problems handling windows media player. I'm using the latest WMP version 10.00.00.3646.

Post by **enderzero** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:53 pm

I'm afraid of Media Player 10.

Video didn't crash Ff but looked like crap until I installed this.

Darth Becile · Post by **Darth Becile** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:19 pm

enderzero wrote:
Michael St. John Smith (re-quoted) wrote:...how their own intellectual smugness may have alienated those less able to understand the implications of the current political direction.
That hits close to home with the discussion at the beginning of this thread.

I disagree - things have gone beyond that. I've been exchanging mail with a nominally Democratic American friend (Mike) and his Republican Mormon family. The smugness is all on their side, although it couldn't be called 'intellectual'. It's a microcosm of the state of politics in the US. Mike provides facts and figures, trenchant criticism, and a critical eye for media disinformation from whatever source. His family respond with trite, content-free blather, backed up by dodgy, partisan data. We've seen the same thing in this thread too.

In frustration, he finally mailed a copy of this around.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/07 ... e_to_reds/
And I'm afraid that's what it's going to take for a while - a big 'fuck you and stew in your own pig-shit' line - until people who voted for Bush see what they've done for themselves. Because there's no persuading them.

You now have the unedifying spectacle of Bliar in Britain telling the voters not to laugh at Bush and his 'wonderfully uncluttered mind'. But of course Brits are going to laugh at him. Hopefully they'll be laughing at Bliar too when it comes to election time in the UK. He says things like "Wouldn't it be fantastically terrible if the US became isolated and isolationist." No it wouldn't. It would be great.

mistasparkle* · Post by mistasparkle* » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:36 pm

From boingboing:

Screencap of blogger Kevin Sites' report of Falluja prisoner shooting
<img src="http://www.boingboing.net/images/mdf757533.jpg" align="left">A video grab of footage referenced in Kevin Sites' report for NBC News shows "a U.S. Marine pointing his assault rifle at a wounded insurgent inside a mosque just before gunfire was heard in Falluja, November 13, 2004... a U.S. Marine shot dead an unarmed and wounded Iraqi prisoner in the mosque." Link to image, Link to archived video and transcript of Kevin's report for NBC News, link to previous BoingBoing post, link to Kevin's blog.

I think the real issue with this video is not necessarily the morality of a US soldier shooting an injured unarmed iraqi..... Its more the fact that the media has deemed the footage too brutal to air. This is part of the whole problem... America holds itself to zero accountablity by censoring the ugly outcome of US foreign policy. We've gotten a packaged, watered-down, flower-scented war, and it's damaged the nation. Let people see how their votes for bush translate directly to DPU sprayed all over civilian homes, 1000 pound bombs going off in the middle of cities, and unarmed injured soldiers being shot at point blank. And to be fair... Let people also see the other side... the dead us soldiers, the beheadings, and the charred bodies of war-profiteers dragged through the street and hoisted on a bridge. The country is far too removed from the bloodshed, leaving people back home to worry and bicker and be divided over comparitively insignificant "moral" issues (like gay-marriage). Thousands are dying out there directly because of US foreign policy and people back home are debating media decency! Let the nightly news become so unbearably filled with bloody scenes of war that the images of Iraq become permanently burned into the psyche of the american people. Those that can't see history happening are certainly doomed to repeat it.

/end rant

Darth Becile · Post by **Darth Becile** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:34 am

I agree!

I also think it's time to stop 'supporting the troops'. How can one not support the war but support the troops who are fighting it (and shooting prisoners, civilians, and anything that moves...)? In the UK, the families of Scottish soldiers who have been killed in Iraq are going to protest to Blair. How absurd! If people stopped getting about with stupid poppies on to celebrate past wars and romanticise soldiering, then maybe those 'boys' wouldn't have gone.

We have to support the troops by calling them a bunch of stupid bastards and hoping that they get IED'd very soon. Then they might not think of themselves as heroes who are 'protecting' us, and stop getting in positions where they shoot everything that moves in somebody else's country.

Get your footage of dead British soldiers here;
http://www.ogrish.com/a/british_black_w ... ttack.html

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:43 am

So are you going to head down to the airport and hold up signs for them upon their return that says "Baby Killers!"? This is brilliant stuff, I think you should go public with your ideas on television to get your ideas out there.

Bill Drayton Jr. · Post by **Bill Drayton Jr.** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:58 am

there is not enough value to it...so...

can we settle the differences with arm wrestling? me agasint anyone? I would love to arm wrestle any of you! oh please??!?!?!? please?!??!?!1 Everyone knows I am totally weak and stupid!

Post by **enderzero** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:54 pm

From Ocean's Register link:

Look at economic output and educational achievement on a state-by-state basis: it's painfully evident that we Blues are immensely more productive and better educated than you Reds. We have lots more money. We live longer. We eat better. We work less. We fuck more. We do cocaine and smoke fine Canadian buds, not the homebrew crank and cheap Mexican headache reefer you guys are stuck with. We drink French wine and Stoli martinis, not Budweiser. Our children rarely bother us: we've got them on Ritalin and Prozac. Our teeth are straighter and whiter, our necks longer, and our fingernails cleaner. And many of us are the Republican elite who have just punked you.

.... · Post by **....** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:23 am

.... · Post by **....** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:44 am

Darth Becile · Post by **Darth Becile** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:34 pm

Uncharacteristically I had a quick look at Fatty Moore's site to see if he was cranking up for a massive counterswipe after the stolen election. It came as no surprise that he wasn't. Instead he offered a banal list of reasons why one shouldn't be too upset.

Two that particularly struck me were;
- Bush might pull a Nixon and get impeached
- He's only got 4 years

This thinking alarms me. By my count, Bush has already stolen two elections, has connived in attacks on American soil resulting in some 3,000 deaths (9/11), has launched an illegal war that has also been a stunning failure, and has promoted advisers who, as disciples of Leo Strauss, are self-confessed 'big liars'. All of which appears to have escaped the notice of republican Americans. This alone should call into question whether he will ultimately limit himself to 4 years...

At the end of the election, Kerry begged for 'unity'. This is precisely the wrong message. There are interesting signs of politics breaking out in other countries. In the UK, politicians of all persuasions have started a movement to impeach Blair for his lies over Iraq, and it's reasonable to suppose that he may not get another term. In Ukraine, the people are on the streets over their democracy. But in America, the same moronic passivity prevails. 9/11 wasn't even an issue in the election.

If Americans (or everybody else) are hoping for Bush to be impeached at some point, it would have to be over something absurd - like, say, miscegenation with Ms. Rice.

BTW, jeb, I have great hope for Mr. Putin's new missiles. The Russians have always done space and aeronautics with stunning panache, and I doubt that they're going to stop now. If they cause certain Straussians to pause for thought, they can hardly be a bad thing.

Personally I think America's best hope for the future lies with the military. Some of the best analysis and most obvious signs of integrity that I've seen recently have come from acting or retired US service people. They may be the only ones left with the power to act effectively. Git some!

Megatron · Post by **Megatron** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:56 am

*Yawn*

Go away.

Post by **enderzero** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:23 am

*slap*

Don't listen to him Darth.

There is a real sense of political malaise that has set in over all of the political thinkers I know. We all have this strong feeling like "we worked so hard and now..." Itâ€™s almost like we just want to shut our eyes and fast forward 4 years. Let Bush do as much damage as he possibly can and then give us a chance to try and fix it but it seems obvious we can't do anything while he is in power. Obviously this isn't a good attitude but fuck! I just feel so powerless.

As a liberal I am so pissed off at the Democratic Party. I feel like I have no voice in this country. The Democrats do not represent me, but since they get closer than the Republicans I have no choice but to support them. That fucking sucks. And since they are such a weak party it pisses me off even more. Like it or not, it is obvious now that a majority of Americans vote based on issues of faith and their sense of security as perceived from the media. Those issues are so ridiculously opposed to what matters to me.

So what is there to look forward to - 4 more years of Bush and then what? Name one strong candidate in the Democratic Party that can capture those votes? If you are a person of faith then it is now canon that you DO NOT vote democrat. Something there got really fucked up. With the liberalization of issues such as gay marriage rights and (gasp â€“ itâ€™s been 30 years) abortion we now have this faith vote as the deciding factor. Listen, you want to try to argue that people that voted for Bush are not stupid... come on. 51 percent of Americans voted for the asshole that ran on a platform of fear. Are you afraid of the gays getting you? Are you afraid of god being mad that you let someone you don't know have an abortion? Shame. SHAME! Why don't you just slap all the blacks back in shackles? Women don't need to vote. Their place is in the kitchen isn't it? These are issues of PERSONAL FREEDOMS. We are talking about human and civil rights.

So here's the damn problem. My position is clearly defined. I know exactly how I feel, but I have no idea what to do now. Hope that Bush fucks up? That is stupid. Bush has fucked up countless times and no one cares. What kind of fuck up would he have to commit to get impeached by a Republican congress? Accidentally nuke Missouri? He can do whatever he wants with zero ramifications. If it came out that Bush had the Kerry offices bugged, it would be on the front page for a day or two, all the liberals would cry foul, and then things would carry on exactly as they were. We citizens have no way of holding accountability to the president because our legislators are either weak and pandering or vastly outnumbered.

I don't even know what to hope for. A revolution sounds mighty romantic, but not very practical. The best thing for this country would be a restructuring of the two part system but that would take some extremely bold maneuvering by a large group of highly influential people. Maybe McCain and Schwarzenegger will lead an exodus from the Republican Party to some kind of independent moderate party, leaving the progressive democrats and neo-cons as the other two. That's the best case scenario I can come up with, but we are talking about a serious long shot here.

Beeeph · Post by **Beeeph** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:56 pm

*Yawn*

Go moderate something, ender.

Darth Becile · Post by **Darth Becile** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:38 pm

ender, Michael Ruppert has an article for you, titled Snap Out of It!
Hope is for lazy people.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/w ... _out.shtml

Also, if you read Greg Palast, you would maybe stop believing that 51% of Americans voted for Bush - cold comfort though that knowledge is.

Surprisingly, from CNN, there's also a good article about your options as an activist here
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/11/24/g ... index.html

Goemon · Post by **Goemon** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:44 pm

ender: I think your feeling is summed up by the latest (always great) strip from Get Yer War On:

Did you see where the Democrats are trying to figure out how they can "get religion" and woo the evangelical vote?

.... · Post by **....** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:06 pm

teh Forum

teh Forum

The most important week of our lives

I have not read page 6!